feeling of the world being alive and real

[snake85027]

What approaches will be done to give the world a feeling that these different groups live with each other?Dragons, elves,orks, trolls, vampires, shamans, mages, deckers.  Theres a lot of hate between the metahumans and the humans. Will the environments adapted to who lives in the them. What I loved about shadowrun(sega version) Is that you believe your in a different world, you walk into the wrong area and it might be a base where the ork halloween gangers live. Or you walk into a magic shop and its some elf shaman there. 

[primetide]

hard to say- we don't want a generic "elf hates orcs" setting, but a certain level of sympathy or antipathy needs to be implemented. but since players can kind of ignore that amongst one another, in a multiplayer game having ONKY the NPCs express preferences also isn't that believable.

[Decivre]

In our campaigns we generally assumed that the racism wasn't non-existent in Runner groups, but that they suppressed it. A group of runners worked together for mutual profit, but did not necessarily like each other. In our groups especially, we were often quite cutthroat with one another if we decided our characters had a disdain for each other (usually the face got the least of it). In the end, we still worked together because the credstick was our paycheck, and we could get it without help.

[Yardarm]

the only real racism we deal with now is in Japan, and the random Humanis gang that gets curb stomped. it's been toned down quite a bit in the later editions, and we play Seattle like the melting pot it thrives as.

yeah, there's racist crap in graffiti and ignorant hate speech, but we have that now. no need to make it super pronounced in an MMO.

[Decivre]

I disagree with that. Discrimination is still a HUGE part of the setting. Whether it's AI fighting for citizenship, technomancers trying to reduce public fear of their power, or even the usual fear and disdain that the public has for magic or heavily-cybered people, it's everywhere. Now classic racism is largely gone: black/white/asian/whatever hasn't been an issue for quite a few decades (though the NAN skirts the line when it comes to treatment of those who don't follow their shamanistic faiths). But you still have plenty of metahuman problems; the insular society of the "Tirs" that seems to dislike non-elves, the ongoing Filipino/Japanese wars... it's there plenty.

That said, I think one fair thing to note is that every MMO has to accept the fact that you cannot expect roleplay from your players. You will always attract people who will play an MMO as a game, with no sense of immersion or character development. Every MMO that has tried to enforce roleplay has failed miserably. Such is life. That doesn't mean you can't put in the cultural realism for those of us that do roleplay, or do want it.

[Yardarm]

discrimination is still in game, and most of the examples you gave were spot on. however, I was talking about the game time that I share with my group, in our sessions. we don't focus on any of the racism issues, because we're having too much fun infiltrating corps and warehouses.

it's 2070. most of the fear and disdain for cyber and magic is gone. people have lived with it for more than 20+ years now. most of the heavy racism is taking place in pockets of humanity, and if you avoid those, no worries.

[snake85027]

I wasnt really trying to bring racism into it or anything. It was more about how shadowrun felt like a real place when I played the sega and super nintendo versions. It was good at giving character to the world itself. When you go to a bar or buying upgrades for magic you might encounter a certain race running that store and that made the world believable. If the setting is suppose to be for orks or trolls, everything would resemble that. Doors would be larger, maybe its one of the gangs in shadowrun, so the colors and graffiti would match it.  Its awesome being able to go on runs but for me its just as important to have the world represent what shadowrun is even if its little details that you think no one would notice.

[Dimetime]

Good subject!

Personally I'd like to see it in the game. That said, I don't view it as a blanket elves hate dwarves, etc. THere were only a handful of groups that actually hate and entire race, if I remember correctly. Humanis Policlub being a big one.

I think it does add a realistic touch. Having a Dwarf gun shop owner who doesn't care too much for orcs charging them higher prices. However, if you conduct business with him a considerable number of times, as well as over those times you choose the right conversation responses, maybe he warms up to you, charges you regular price.

Later on a random transaction he opens up to you that his best friend was an orc. He got himself killed on a run with the dwarf while taking a risk the dwarf had told him not to. Because of that he's pushed all orcs away. You remind him of his friend and opens up a special stash to you.

In the context of Shadowrun (because this is going to sound nuts in the context of the real world) racism isn't so bad a thing as not to be included. We deal with it in the real world and it can make for some interesting runs in the SR game world.

I guess what I'm saying is it is what you make of it and you shouldn't let the few bad apples out there take it away from the game.

[Sangius]

I am pro pro Meta-rights plots (AIs, O.R.C., that kind of stuff), I think it would add a lot of flavour.

[kosten07]

This could all be facilitated by Humanis group missions or trips to the Orc Underground.  The question will be ultimately how gritty does Cliffhanger want to get.  There's a lot going on in the Shadowrun Universe.

[snake85027]

well this thread was suppose to be about keeping the feeling of being in shadowrun game by adding smalll details.  Sure having the hate toward the metahumans would add to it but mostly just having the environment reflect living in a world that is made up of different cultures and races and built around that idea.  This is suppose to be a dangerous time and there is no telling what your going to run into.  When your walking around maybe downtown somewhere we should be seeing ork graffiti or street signs that would gear toward a certain part of society.  Thats probably the most difficult part to do as an environment artist. Getting into the mind of something that doesnt exist. If I were an ork or troll what would my shelter look like, what would the stores resemble, if I was a mage elf, would my homes be built in trees and things like that.

[Decivre]

Well, from what I can gauge from the Q&A, they are keeping the seedier themes of the earlier editions, but using the timeline period and mechanics from 4th Edition. I'd imagine they would make a strong effort to keep the feel of the games. After all, that's the primary reason we all want to play it.

[DarkLloyd]

If we want to keep the "Down and Dirty" feel of this game then CliffHanger needs to implement the Street Cred/Notoriety/Public Awareness rules. And make them count.

Runners need to worry about the cops in the cities. Even the Bad Ass high level runners. Cops have more backup than we do. and can call enough heavy hitters to eventually take anyone down.

When we have to worry about our Notoriety/Public Awareness building up, then we cant just stroll down the street in the "Gamer Default Mode" ("I'm carrying everything I own on me." Which includes assault cannons, mini guns, enough pistols to make a wall out of, 4000 rounds of the latest MilSpec AP ammo, all while wearing full Heavy Military Armor w/ ruthenium coating to stroll down mid town Seattle.........)

We should actively have to Think about what image we project to the public. Unless of course the PC's want to be pulled aside to be frisked and scanned every block by the cops. And then what happens when they find that PC with illegal gear? (anything that is restricted or higher on availability)

     For pistols; confiscation and a fine. Probably.
Unless of course you have that pistol loaded with that Milspec ammo from above.......... Then its off to jail.
     For any weapons bigger than pistols, there better be License/permits on hand and they damned well better be tied to GOOD fake SINs. Otherwise....... off to Jail.
     Now if it's assault rifle or bigger....(the Forbidden Availability stuff).... Good luck trying to talk a cop into believing you have a license for that. Again.....off to jail.
     This works with Cyber and Bio the same way. The cops scan you and find illegal mods, you can expect fines or jail time if you don't have the proper documents.
     But should you have Forbidden 'Ware..(and frankly, anything good is forbidden)... off to jail.

The point to all this is, we MUST be sneaky!!!!!! We are Freakin' criminals! Yes, maybe, maybe, of the Robin hood type, but criminals none the less. And as such we have no rights in the society we make our money off of.
To continue to make money, we have to stay Out of the public eye. That means blending in, NOT being flamboyant and NO killing spree's you can't put someone else on the hook for!! Its about Subtlety.

To paraphrase a famous quote:
Jules: What country are you from?
Brett: What? What? Wh - ?
Jules: "What" ain't no country I've ever heard of. They speak "Subtlety" in What?
Brett: What?
Jules: Subtlety, motherf'er, can you do it?
Brett: Yes! Yes! 

[Dimetime]

....Runners need to worry about the cops in the cities. Even the Bad Ass high level runners. Cops have more backup than we do. and can call enough heavy hitters to eventually take anyone down.

This. I really hope that the intent is to keep at the forefront of players mind that no matter how big billy badass you think you are, there's always a Lonestar response team with helicopters and more of everything that you've got waiting around the corner.

[primetide]

Not wanting to take you out of the buzz, but I have two answers to that, one of whivh you may not like:
As we do not have a persistent world, you won't be strolling down street usually to just get from a to b. You will use sort of a map with certain locations you "travel" to. Some of those will be hubs - this ios where you meet other players and Johnsons. We assume that it is a cop-free zone - but we do not have the full city recreated like in games such as WoW or GuildWars
Then you have got your mission locations - here, you can safely assume that if you are discovered by lonestar or other guards, they will try and take you out and backup can be on the way. For this, mission have alarm levels and NPCs have certain responses to those. If you raise the alarm to a certain point, you have a maximum time left to exit the level, or you are just going to be caught and mission is over (and you will have to bribe your way out or use contacts to get back on the street).