Should I or shouldn't I?

[Dimetime]

One thing I see alot of in the MMO genre are games in which players aren't held accountable for senseless actions. Sound too much like "Hey let's penalize players with a hefty death mechanic!" ?

Well, while I have nothing against that at all, I'll rephrase my intro.

One thing I do not see enough of in the modern MMO period is hefty praise and rewarding of players who use progressive thought in tackling in game objectives. It seems the most convenient manner to implement "content" is to make it as simple to tackle as throwing bodies at it.  "Run at it and die enough times" and eventually you will overcome  the task. Hardly does a player these days ask "Should I or shouldn't I go into this strangely ominous looking area?".

Just as a high level level example I'd like to see a mission with a sewer component that rewards player playing a race that doesn't have a form of night vision with something "extra" for bringing a light source and using it. Conversely, a like race player without such source should find that portion of the mission almost impossible to complete alone or with mates who are similarly ill-prepared.

I would also like to see a return to the mission statements actually containing hints and clues that players need to complete their runs. This has gone away for the most part and been replaced with a minimap and a quest location marker. While I am not really a fan of the latter I'd like to see a nice compromise between having very little clue of what or where you are going to having an increasingly better idea of the situation based on how your legwork phase goes.

One other thing I hope the development team does since it has kinda of been admitted that this is a niche effort is that they not be afraid to let players who do not prep properly fail. My personal belief is that with max preparation (by this I mean you nailed all of your legwork rolls):

• A team should have a 55 to 60 percent chance of success on missions where there are forces actively working against the team.
• Runs in which there aren't forces actively working against (but there is the off chance that some other entity might see intervening as a profitable opportunity IF they hear about it) should experience a 70 to 80 percent chance of success.
• Runs in which no forces are acting against and that aren't involving any universally high value items (the items are only important to the limited parties involved) would see a 85 to 95 percent chance of success.

 

Personally I don't like the idea of 100% success considering the setting. I've joked that Shadowrun should carry the subtitle "Shadowrun: Murphy's Law".

I would be very disappointed to see talk of "Hey, let's run X mission" real fast so I can get Y item". In my view the idea of literally running from start through to finish of a mission should be met with only one thing: failure. Thought and tactical planning should be at the forefront of every mission.

[primetide]

I can get on board with the latter part - we will penalize mission failure and death and we will actually require certain thingsto be present for some mission. So for example: the dark toxix sewer mission will require you to a)bring light soruces or have augmentations and b) bring gas masks or similar equipment. Otherwise, you won't even be allowed to start.
This is a bit more primitive, but I don't beleive in alowing players to start a mission simply because they may have been unclear about what it requires and them let them die without a chance. Sometimes it may have been the player being stupid but sometimes we may have made a mistake and the text was perhaps ambigous. Andf as you cannot "scout" the mission map beforehand, it is safe to assume that, wile the player may be stupid- his character probably isn't dumb enough to walk into a toxic waste without protective equipment.
I think we won't go full old school, hard-ass, but we do want to step away from "there is no consequence to you actions other than lost time"

[Dimetime]

I think we won't go full old school, hard-ass, but we do want to step away from "there is no consequence to you actions other than lost time"

I certainly love to hear this!

[DarkLloyd]

I think we won't go full old school, hard-ass, but we do want to step away from "there is no consequence to you actions other than lost time"

I certainly love to hear this!

Seconded. We don't have to have Hardcore mode one death and your done style, altho that would suit me just fine, but letting people die when they are stupid is friggen mandatory.

[Sangius]

I definitely second random encounters. I just want to point out that maybe the chance shouldn't be tooo high. We had one group where we used some SR2/3 (not sure anymore) rules for random encounters during runs which were a bit offlimits. In the end we met a dragon / free elemental / gang of vampires every second run while the others where accompanied by shedims and special forces who were confusing us with other runners ... It should, in my opinion, add to the atmosphere, without hindering the flow of the game itself on the other hand.

[tajlund]

I know in SR 1&2 your karma rewards were directly related to your actions, how you played things out, creative solutions to problems, finding things to do other than "run and gun".  Might be something hard to work into a computer game though.

[primetide]

Yep- this is why we probably will give Karma for "solving" the mission and achievements for certain ways to do it. We do not want to give incentives for  just killing, but tracking how clever you are is hard...

[Dimetime]

You touch on a point that is near and dear to me. Looking across the gaming industry in general it seems that the people making games (in the majority) only believe that hitting something over the head and exterminating it is the only way to win/advance.

Now, disclaimer, I love to hit things over the head so don't get me wrong.

That said, I really enjoy the dynamic of trying to accomplish a mission without the use of force. The threat of the use of force, sure. The use of stealth, absolutely! Negotiated mutual benefit , for certain!

What I would enjoy seeing come from this are lasting consequences:

• Use choose to geek the leader of that Go Gang to accomplish mission 1, cool. You proceed on to mission 2.
• On the other hand, you let him live and negotiate with him, you open mission 1a (and you also have reputation with him, maybe even becoming a Contact).
• You choose to accomplish the mission by sneaking in and getting what you need, great! You open up mission 1b (possibly getting negative reputation with him, or none at all if you are stealthy enough!).
• Threaten use of force to win mission and you open mission 1c (and certainly gain negative rep with him).

A super nice tie in would be having certain encounters (and how they are resolved) affect random encounter tables that a player's behind the scenes roll may pull from. Tick off the Go Ganger leader (or kill him) and that gang attacks you on sight from then on. Do that "thing" to save that rookie Lone star officers reputation and maybe the next LS patrol you encounter just looks the other way.

The above said, reputation should be fluid. You should be able to go from negative to neutral to positive. That's not to say it should be easy. It should be available if a person wanted to try, though.

[TheMagi]

I agree with the reputation being a great way to effect what random encounters you will find also how groups (CORPS, LONE STAR, Gangs etc. ) will interact with you. If you do this effect in the game well I Think it will add to the environment of the game to feel more like you are in the Shadowrun universe.

[ghostmode]

I'm with these two. Excellent idea. 

I think having encounters act as feedback for your actions in the game would be a terrific way to fill in some of the roleplaying gap. Positive and negative rep in relation to factions or individual contacts seems not only reasonable but also very awesome in terms or adding color.

Knowing that so-and-so hates you might keep you from taking on a run in so-and-so's neighborhood out of fear of ambush(which could theoretically take place briefly before OR after the main mission).

It would then be advantageous for a team to have a good businessman to smooth things over if they end up fragged. It may also legitimize the Face character! It's all in who ya know, better runs and better pay for the team that hires a squeeky clean negotiator to do all the talkin. 


Let me just say I'm glad Primetide is in here listening to us. Some of you guys are spiting out some great ideas.

 

[Stahlseele]

Sad that the old SRO Boards are not there anymore, we had scrounged up such nice ideas and design documents . .
Perma-Death only for certain character types, like Cyber-Zombies for example . .
Meaning you REALLY would have to think about going that Route . .
Basically close to unlimited power, with the drawback that you can, indeed, lose it all . .