Technomancer/Adept -- Hero classes?

[Dimetime]

Yes, but we've already gotten confirmation that this game won't be a free-roam sort of thing. The difference between karma and nuyen degrades when the game is completely mission-based.

Very true. I did not mean it in the free roaming sense, heh. Initially I was speaking philosophically (spirit of the game)showing the difference between earning life experience (karma) versus how easy it is to earn nuyen. If taken in the literal (gameplay) I was speaking more that in the missions we will likely be able to pick up "loot" from dead opponents. Loot that can be sold back to an NPC for nuyen.

Personally I'd love to see CP lean toward the "spirit of the game" when designing systems as much as possible. Changing things for "gameplay" in my view has watered down much in the current MMO design rulebook. Indeed it is one of the reason why I didn't want to see this IP brought to an MMO format. Having one of the most lethal PnP RPGs given the "WoW facelift" was as scary a thought as turning the corner to find a dragon.

This could mean for example (and I am not saying it will): Mages use Karma to learn spell (which still cost nuyen to get, especially with a teacher). You have a base chance of learning the spell and can invest into increasing that with better teachers etc. by spending money and/or time (action points). Once you actually suceed, you pay your karma for getting the spell "internalized".
Foci on the other hand could well be degrading...the bound power in it could be consumed with use and finally be "drained". Then foci could be bought with nuyen or crafted by magi with materials and time.

I might recommend that there be a way to repair (recharge) your foci and such, so that you aren't repeatedly forced to buy new ones. This is especially true if you decide to create a system where foci will have special properties and such, and not just a force stat.

I like the idea of Foci degrading. Indeed item wear should be used in many areas where its use would facilitate a form of player crafting. The idea of being able to constantly repair or recharge and foci (or any item really) doesn't seem right to me. Granted, I could see it happening 3 to 5 time depending on the item, but after so many repairs/recharges there should come a time that you need to buy or build a brand new one.

[Urza]

I'm not entirely against it, but things like failing to learn a spell that you still have to pay for, and item degradation over time (use is ok), don't really translate well into online gaming usually.  I'm sure you can find a way to make it work but please do be careful.  Most gamers now don't want to spend a fortune on a spell or a binding and then fail a dice roll and lose 40k nuyen or something that they worked so long to earn.

Not all pen and paper mechanics translate well into video games.  I know I couldn't stand playing Everquest when it came out because they actually made you take real time to memorize a spell.  That coupled with my caster not being able to solo even level 1 mobs without a guard to help and I was done with the game in under 2 hours.

Now, if the degradation and failures are put into the game, I suggest that there be a scaling put in.  Don't let new players fail, make it at least mid and high level before it can start.  Not just really unlikely a new player is going to fail but 0.  And, when it is introduced that failure is possible, make absolutely certain in excruciating detail that they know its a possibility with a link/story hook to options to reduce that failure chance being very very visible.  Preferably with a way to reduce failure rates to absolute 0 if one is willing to put up the extra nuyen/karma.  Some of us have horrible luck with virtual dice and dont really appreciate being beholden to the computer gods of luck without a way out.

[Decivre]

Very true. I did not mean it in the free roaming sense, heh. Initially I was speaking philosophically (spirit of the game)showing the difference between earning life experience (karma) versus how easy it is to earn nuyen. If taken in the literal (gameplay) I was speaking more that in the missions we will likely be able to pick up "loot" from dead opponents. Loot that can be sold back to an NPC for nuyen.

Personally I'd love to see CP lean toward the "spirit of the game" when designing systems as much as possible. Changing things for "gameplay" in my view has watered down much in the current MMO design rulebook. Indeed it is one of the reason why I didn't want to see this IP brought to an MMO format. Having one of the most lethal PnP RPGs given the "WoW facelift" was as scary a thought as turning the corner to find a dragon.

There are certain problematic conceits that MMOs have to make due to being a different medium. Certain amounts of management that exist in the tabletop game (such as doing minor robberies on the side to support your lifestyle) would simply take too much to implement into the game. In theory they could be done, but most players probably wouldn't find them appealing. The game has to turn a profit for it to be worth making.

That said, with pragmatic adaptation they can come pretty close to the tabletop game in feel, if not mechanics. I would really love to see random encounters that make having a fake SIN or five worth it. I'd like to see those same SINs become less and less useful as you use them on missions, forcing you to buy more of them. Is it the same as having to micromanage your criminal lifestyle to avoid the Star? No, but it's close enough for a videogame to please me. I'd like for your character stats to be close enough to the tabletop stats that you could write them down on a character sheet and play them on the table. That doesn't mean that the videogame has to use identical mechanics and computer-generated dice rolls.

The spirit of the game still gives the developers a lot of playroom, and I hope they take advantage of that.

I like the idea of Foci degrading. Indeed item wear should be used in many areas where its use would facilitate a form of player crafting. The idea of being able to constantly repair or recharge and foci (or any item really) doesn't seem right to me. Granted, I could see it happening 3 to 5 time depending on the item, but after so many repairs/recharges there should come a time that you need to buy or build a brand new one.

The problem is that it creates a scenario where items become "rent-to-use", like premiere guns in certain online shooters. This practice is rather shaky, and while I wouldn't mind having such a mechanic for people who are too lazy to find or create an item themselves, I think that a person who earns the item should be able to keep it for as long as they wish (especially since this gives you incentive to mod and upgrade your equipment).

Besides, the more likely scenario for foci is that they will be discarded eventually anyways. There is a hard cap on how many foci a mage can have at a time equal to their magic stat, and an overall cap on how powerful all of their foci combined can be as well. Chances are that a mage will discard weaker foci as he finds newer, more powerful ones... or ones that he prefers over the current ones he has. A rent-to-use foci mechanic is unnecessary.

I'm not entirely against it, but things like failing to learn a spell that you still have to pay for, and item degradation over time (use is ok), don't really translate well into online gaming usually.  I'm sure you can find a way to make it work but please do be careful.  Most gamers now don't want to spend a fortune on a spell or a binding and then fail a dice roll and lose 40k nuyen or something that they worked so long to earn.

Remember that they plan to have some sort of "time points" which will be used to manage your time in missions. You will probably use a similar sort of "time point" system for training as well, with failures simply summing to increased time point loss. Making the whole game work in real-time like Everquest did would be insane.

[Dimetime]

...
There are certain problematic conceits that MMOs have to make due to being a different medium. Certain amounts of management that exist in the tabletop game (such as doing minor robberies on the side to support your lifestyle) would simply take too much to implement into the game. In theory they could be done, but most players probably wouldn't find them appealing. The game has to turn a profit for it to be worth making.

Those conceits (in general) have led to lackluster overall experience in previous IP based games where the IP was a pencil and paper gaming format of merit. Granted, some conceits do have to be made, but what I see as the issue is that in past game too many were made to 1) try the make the game be something for all mmo gamers, and 2) take an easier path in development (for whatever reason, usually publisher hot breath on neck).

My hope is that this attempt will not need as many concessions. It has been stated already they are going for niche and that niche is Shadowrun gamers. I also think that, just as the Microsoft effort proved, if you don't capture Shadowrun gamers, you product will fall miserably. To cap it off, I also believe that the vast majority of Shadowrun gamers would appreciate as much SotG stuff implemented as possible. Heck, some items that deemed too tedious could be implemented such that they are done during the time we are logged out.

I like the idea of Foci degrading. Indeed item wear should be used in many areas where its use would facilitate a form of player crafting. The idea of being able to constantly repair or recharge and foci (or any item really) doesn't seem right to me. Granted, I could see it happening 3 to 5 time depending on the item, but after so many repairs/recharges there should come a time that you need to buy or build a brand new one.

The problem is that it creates a scenario where items become "rent-to-use", like premiere guns in certain online shooters. This practice is rather shaky, and while I wouldn't mind having such a mechanic for people who are too lazy to find or create an item themselves, I think that a person who earns the item should be able to keep it for as long as they wish (especially since this gives you incentive to mod and upgrade your equipment).
...

I don't view it as a negative. Indeed, I see it as an incentive for players to continue to look for new items as well as it gives move meaning and value to the currency in game. The ammount of times something could be repaired or recharged is something that needs testing, but I think the concept is sound. Steps should be taken to avoid the Fat-cat No Worries Syndrome where a player has all of their "epics" and doesn't need to replace any gear save consumable, which are usually trivial in cost.

Gear maintenance should be a strong factor. Maybe have repair/recharge costs rise exponentially with every repair/recharge. So you can keep the item but it is going to cost you (nuyen) more and more to maintain the longer you keep it?

[Decivre]

Those conceits (in general) have led to lackluster overall experience in previous IP based games where the IP was a pencil and paper gaming format of merit. Granted, some conceits do have to be made, but what I see as the issue is that in past game too many were made to 1) try the make the game be something for all mmo gamers, and 2) take an easier path in development (for whatever reason, usually publisher hot breath on neck).

My hope is that this attempt will not need as many concessions. It has been stated already they are going for niche and that niche is Shadowrun gamers. I also think that, just as the Microsoft effort proved, if you don't capture Shadowrun gamers, you product will fall miserably. To cap it off, I also believe that the vast majority of Shadowrun gamers would appreciate as much SotG stuff implemented as possible. Heck, some items that deemed too tedious could be implemented such that they are done during the time we are logged out.

There is no way for them to perfectly emulate the tabletop game in such a way to please players. They would have to make an artificial intelligence as imaginative, versatile and cunning as at least a mediocre GM, and that isn't happening in the next couple years. Concessions exist to bring the game up to playability; they are shortcuts which prevent the devtime for this game from being measured in DNFs (Duke Nukem Forevers: each unit being approximately 15 years).

However, you should remember that as an MMO, this game will be under constant development. Even if they make a large number of concessions early on (many of which we already know about; there won't be astral space or matrix runs yet), they will have the opportunity to add in better mechanics and game elements down the line. Who knows? Maybe in 5 years, we'll be asking the tabletop devs to make their game as good as the MMO.

I don't view it as a negative. Indeed, I see it as an incentive for players to continue to look for new items as well as it gives move meaning and value to the currency in game. The ammount of times something could be repaired or recharged is something that needs testing, but I think the concept is sound. Steps should be taken to avoid the Fat-cat No Worries Syndrome where a player has all of their "epics" and doesn't need to replace any gear save consumable, which are usually trivial in cost.

Gear maintenance should be a strong factor. Maybe have repair/recharge costs rise exponentially with every repair/recharge. So you can keep the item but it is going to cost you (nuyen) more and more to maintain the longer you keep it?

Not always. Forcing players to constantly purchase new equipment is going to be very painful for players that have characters which rely on equipment. It will suck for street sams to be forced to constantly buy replacement cyberware, guns and armor atop already-existing ammunition and lifestyle costs. It'll be even worse for riggers, who are the biggest money sinks in the tabletop game by far. The only people that won't be punished by this sort of mechanic are adepts and technomancers.

There are no real "epics" in Shadowrun. Equipment only gets so powerful, and it's doubtful that any runner is going to get ahold of the uber-weapons of the setting (major artifacts and Aesir satellites tend to be well out of every Shadowrunner's reach). This sort of mechanic will just punish players for picking an equipment-reliant class, and do the exact opposite of what this thread originally proposed... rather than allowing equipment-independent classes like the adept and technomancer, it will force you to play them. That doesn't seem like a good idea at all.

[Dimetime]

There is no way for them to perfectly emulate the tabletop game in such a way to please players. They would have to make an artificial intelligence as imaginative, versatile and cunning as at least a mediocre GM, and that isn't happening in the next couple years. Concessions exist to bring the game up to playability; they are shortcuts which prevent the devtime for this game from being measured in DNFs (Duke Nukem Forevers: each unit being approximately 15 years).

I never stated that I wanted them to perfectly emulate the tabletop game. I only expressed a desire that they make less concessions than is currently popular as the industry norm in that regard. SOmething that can be done, for sure.

Not always. Forcing players to constantly purchase new equipment is going to be very painful for players that have characters which rely on equipment. It will suck for street sams to be forced to constantly buy replacement cyberware, guns and armor atop already-existing ammunition and lifestyle costs. It'll be even worse for riggers, who are the biggest money sinks in the tabletop game by far. The only people that won't be punished by this sort of mechanic are adepts and technomancers.

There are no real "epics" in Shadowrun. Equipment only gets so powerful, and it's doubtful that any runner is going to get ahold of the uber-weapons of the setting (major artifacts and Aesir satellites tend to be well out of every Shadowrunner's reach). This sort of mechanic will just punish players for picking an equipment-reliant class, and do the exact opposite of what this thread originally proposed... rather than allowing equipment-independent classes like the adept and technomancer, it will force you to play them. That doesn't seem like a good idea at all.

In truth we don't know that it will be painful as we have not seen it in practice. It could turn out to be perfectly reasonable. If done with careful thought I see no reason why it wouldn't. I disagree that anyone will be punished as well because, again, with thought and testing it can be done in a reasonable manner.

Sure, there are no "epics" in Shadowrun. That said, gear and equipment does get worn down and outdated and needs to be replaced. That's why nuyen has value. Take that out and nuyen loses a great deal of its value.

[Decivre]

I never stated that I wanted them to perfectly emulate the tabletop game. I only expressed a desire that they make less concessions than is currently popular as the industry norm in that regard. SOmething that can be done, for sure.

Naturally, but there will definitely have to be plenty done. Especially since they plan on releasing next year.

In truth we don't know that it will be painful as we have not seen it in practice. It could turn out to be perfectly reasonable. If done with careful thought I see no reason why it wouldn't. I disagree that anyone will be punished as well because, again, with thought and testing it can be done in a reasonable manner.

Sure, there are no "epics" in Shadowrun. That said, gear and equipment does get worn down and outdated and needs to be replaced. That's why nuyen has value. Take that out and nuyen loses a great deal of its value.

It's not that hard to find out how painful it would be in practice. Shadowrun already has equipment-reliant characters pay for such things as repairs, lifestyle, ammunition, replacement of disposable equipment, SotA maintenance, and occasionally legwork. Ever-growing costs would be FAR more painful than the standard deductions that a running team faces already. Plus, it makes zero sense to have these growing costs if players can simply purchase new copies of the same items. What purpose would this growing maintenance mechanic serve, other than to make every item in the game forcibly disposable for no particular reason?

Not everything in the Shadowrun universe needs to be replaced. One of the players in my group is still using his Ares Predator II from pre-2065 (we converted our characters over from 3rd edition; I was the only one who got a new character). He maintains it and upgrades it to this day. I'm pretty sure he'd leave our table if I told him that his character's signature gun just spontaneously turned to dust one day. Hackers generally don't replace programs... they patch or upgrade them, the cost of which is significantly lower than replacement. Hell, the only member of our crew that ever buys regular replacements is the rigger, and that's for pretty obvious reasons (drones have a much shorter lifespan than runners).

There are plenty of already-existing money sinks in the game. This will be ESPECIALLY true if they decide to have lifestyle rules. I plan to be dumping 100,000�+ a month on my sex-pad.

Ooh, new question for primetide! Any chance of getting some implementation of the custom lifestyle rules from runner's companion?

[Urza]

Its a bit icky, but Samurai and other gear dependent classes could do some corpse chopping to pick some nice stuff off the corp guards and save some cash.  Datajacks, smartgun links, maybe dermal plating, etc could all be stuff you'd chop out of a guy and then just have a street doc install.

Just an idea to make the gear classes a bit less money centric as an option.  They of course shouldn't get all their upgrades that way.

[Sangius]

I'll poke primetide to give his opinion on the matters at hand sometime today or tomorrow. And I would like to quickly take the time and remind everyone that we should try to sustain a comfortable atmosphere in order for the discussions and brainstorming to flourish at a best possible rate. In such an early, preproduction state, it's possible to talk about almost anything and there's no need to bring out the big guns just yet

I just thought I'd point it out once more - I saw in the past that the transition from civilized disagreement to animosities can happen quicker than expected, especially if people care as much about a project as we do.


PS: About that corps-harvesting idea: It depends. We used to allow it in our Shadowrun group, even to just make some profit, but it depends very much on whether the circumstances give you the time to do it (you have time to spend with the corpses and there are no Star units rushing to your designation etc.). I am not sure whether that could be emulated to a computer game that easily. Well, I suppose you could flag some missions as allowing to do that and others not ... hm.

[primetide]

I'm not entirely against it, but things like failing to learn a spell that you still have to pay for, and item degradation over time (use is ok), don't really translate well into online gaming usually.  I'm sure you can find a way to make it work but please do be careful.  Most gamers now don't want to spend a fortune on a spell or a binding and then fail a dice roll and lose 40k nuyen or something that they worked so long to earn.
....
Now, if the degradation and failures are put into the game, I suggest that there be a scaling put in.  Don't let new players fail, make it at least mid and high level before it can start.  Not just really unlikely a new player is going to fail but 0.  And, when it is introduced that failure is possible, make absolutely certain in excruciating detail that they know its a possibility with a link/story hook to options to reduce that failure chance being very very visible.  Preferably with a way to reduce failure rates to absolute 0 if one is willing to put up the extra nuyen/karma.  Some of us have horrible luck with virtual dice and dont really appreciate being beholden to the computer gods of luck without a way out.

Of course they would scale and of course you can increase chances to succeed at a cost in Action Points or nuyen - I am not at all propagating simply randomizing results. Also, items should be repaired/recharged/re-enchanted, nit just "lost". And always ALWAYS the odds will be visibly displayed and can be influenced - it should simply be risk/reward (invest less time/money, take the risk of failing)

[primetide]

....
Not everything in the Shadowrun universe needs to be replaced. One of the players in my group is still using his Ares Predator II from pre-2065 (we converted our characters over from 3rd edition; I was the only one who got a new character). He maintains it and upgrades it to this day. I'm pretty sure he'd leave our table if I told him that his character's signature gun just spontaneously turned to dust one day. Hackers generally don't replace programs... they patch or upgrade them, the cost of which is significantly lower than replacement. Hell, the only member of our crew that ever buys regular replacements is the rigger, and that's for pretty obvious reasons (drones have a much shorter lifespan than runners).

There are plenty of already-existing money sinks in the game. This will be ESPECIALLY true if they decide to have lifestyle rules. I plan to be dumping 100,000�+ a month on my sex-pad.

Ooh, new question for primetide! Any chance of getting some implementation of the custom lifestyle rules from runner's companion?

whoa, that has spun into a long and thoughtful discussion - I think the solutiuon to this is basically that degradation to "destroy" and degradation to "recharge/repair" are not oppositions but ends of a scale.
First, you introduce quality as a means to gauge degradation speed or as a "stat" similar to "health".
The you define groups of "resistance/health" based on invest:

Cyberwear for example could degrade slowly, being a major invest. A used gun from the junkyard could degrade quickly.
Then cost for repairs also scale - the used up gun may not be worth repairing, your cyberware would be. The Ares Predator II would be a constantly and lovingly cared for gun, in essence receiving many "repair-like" attentions with a "repair-like" item called: Gun oil and polishing pad. It may also be "mastercraft" quality and have heaps of "health".

Then some things can malfunction upon reaching certain "health" levels, influencing your interest in repairing them. Here some quality stat could define the chances of malfunctioning - a cheaply made cybewrare may still degrade slowly, but malfunction much earlier, making constant reconfigurations/repairs advisable if you don't want to be stuck with a locked up cyberarm in mid-combat.
Magic failure can go the same way for foci etc.

Then lastly crafting (which is not that developed in SR) comes in for rigger and hacker characters - they can program their own soft and invest time (and buy top equipment to improve their chances of succeeding) and perhaps resources, which are again a mission goal in itself (there is this new hot algorythm in town, you may wanna get your hands on).

by and large materialistic motivations prevail in MMOs much more than in PnP games  (karma or nuyen in the end are means of improvement) - but SRO already has a sound basing in that. More so than "fantasy" MMos where in the end most players seem like mercenaries as opposed to the noble paladins they are supposed to be.

[Decivre]

Of course they would scale and of course you can increase chances to succeed at a cost in Action Points or nuyen - I am not at all propagating simply randomizing results. Also, items should be repaired/recharged/re-enchanted, nit just "lost". And always ALWAYS the odds will be visibly displayed and can be influenced - it should simply be risk/reward (invest less time/money, take the risk of failing)

I like it. Reminds me of the rush job rules from the current edition. That said, I hope that certain things in the game won't have a true "success or failure" mechanic, but rather a "success/keep trying" mechanic. Lots of things in the game utilize extended rolls, where the player continues to invest time until he succeeds at something. In these cases failure is relatively rare (you have to roll terribly, which generally requires that your character be inept at whatever he happens to be trying). I think that training and crafting should both utilize these sorts of things, where the so-called time units you guys plan to use in the game decide how much time a player has to invest in order to achieve his goals.

Also, if at all possible, I hope a lot of these minor costs get swallowed up by the lifestyle rules should you have a more costly one. That was always one of the perks of having a wealthy home... many of the minor costs involve with running could get ignored as your lifestyle became more expensive. This should happen.

[primetide]

sorry - failure for me simply means lack of a positive result as oppsoed to a drastic negative effect- so yes, failure means: try again until you have collected enough success

[Dimetime]

....
Not everything in the Shadowrun universe needs to be replaced. One of the players in my group is still using his Ares Predator II from pre-2065 (we converted our characters over from 3rd edition; I was the only one who got a new character). He maintains it and upgrades it to this day. I'm pretty sure he'd leave our table if I told him that his character's signature gun just spontaneously turned to dust one day. Hackers generally don't replace programs... they patch or upgrade them, the cost of which is significantly lower than replacement. Hell, the only member of our crew that ever buys regular replacements is the rigger, and that's for pretty obvious reasons (drones have a much shorter lifespan than runners).

There are plenty of already-existing money sinks in the game. This will be ESPECIALLY true if they decide to have lifestyle rules. I plan to be dumping 100,000�+ a month on my sex-pad.

Ooh, new question for primetide! Any chance of getting some implementation of the custom lifestyle rules from runner's companion?

whoa, that has spun into a long and thoughtful discussion - I think the solutiuon to this is basically that degradation to "destroy" and degradation to "recharge/repair" are not oppositions but ends of a scale.
First, you introduce quality as a means to gauge degradation speed or as a "stat" similar to "health".
The you define groups of "resistance/health" based on invest:

Cyberwear for example could degrade slowly, being a major invest. A used gun from the junkyard could degrade quickly.
Then cost for repairs also scale - the used up gun may not be worth repairing, your cyberware would be. The Ares Predator II would be a constantly and lovingly cared for gun, in essence receiving many "repair-like" attentions with a "repair-like" item called: Gun oil and polishing pad. It may also be "mastercraft" quality and have heaps of "health".

Then some things can malfunction upon reaching certain "health" levels, influencing your interest in repairing them. Here some quality stat could define the chances of malfunctioning - a cheaply made cybewrare may still degrade slowly, but malfunction much earlier, making constant reconfigurations/repairs advisable if you don't want to be stuck with a locked up cyberarm in mid-combat.
Magic failure can go the same way for foci etc.

Then lastly crafting (which is not that developed in SR) comes in for rigger and hacker characters - they can program their own soft and invest time (and buy top equipment to improve their chances of succeeding) and perhaps resources, which are again a mission goal in itself (there is this new hot algorythm in town, you may wanna get your hands on).

by and large materialistic motivations prevail in MMOs much more than in PnP games  (karma or nuyen in the end are means of improvement) - but SRO already has a sound basing in that. More so than "fantasy" MMos where in the end most players seem like mercenaries as opposed to the noble paladins they are supposed to be.

Very glad to see that wear and tear will be a factor.

[Urza]

sorry - failure for me simply means lack of a positive result as oppsoed to a drastic negative effect- so yes, failure means: try again until you have collected enough success

This i'm ok with so long as it doesn't take the same massive amount of money each attempt.  Spend 50k and fail, only spend 3k for the next attempt kind of thing.

I'm all for repairs as a way to motivate you not to fail at a task.  No one likes opening the wallet for something they wouldn't have to if they did it right the first time.