Poll

How would you prefer combat to play out in SRO?

Turn-based, like Jagged Alliance Online
7 (58.3%)
In (close to) real time, like in Neverwinter Nights
5 (41.7%)

Total Members Voted: 12

Author Topic: Turn-based or "real time"?  (Read 954 times)

Beelzebubba

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Turn-based or "real time"?
« on: February 12, 2012, 12:15:17 am »
I'm thrilled that Shadowrun Online (SRO) is being made, and that such care is being given to the IP and game quality. However the game turns out, at this stage I feel safe saying I will support it.

But I wanted to make a suggestion about gameplay. I recently got a beta key and tried out Jagged Alliance Online (JAO). While I was impressed by the quality, I was less enthusiastic about the turn-based combat. It gave me flashbacks of XCOM, which in the 90's was ground-breaking, but by today's standards is painfully slow-paced, even when only controlling one soldier--I shudder to think how painful it would be to direct the actions of an entire squad.

So far I have the impression that JAO is being used as a sort of model for SRO, and I remember reading a comment from Primetide saying that turn-based combat might be the only way to realize the speed and variety of actions a character can be capable of in SR. When I read that statement I saw the logic in it, but after playing JAO I defintely would prefer SRO to have a faster pace.

The question is how to go about it. I'm not going to try to describe a fully-explored and developed solution, because 1) I'm not a game designer, and 2) SRO development might have already progressed past the point of no return. But I am going to throw out a way I think it could work, if it's not too late.

In a SR game done correctly, things simply cannot happen in real time because characters can move too fast. So some turn-mechanism is needed to emulate all the passes, etc. However, I think the game will be more fun to play if that mechanism exists beneath the hood and is not someting players can control or see in the interface. A good example, I think, was the first Neverwinter Nights (NWN). Turns and speeds were obviously being used, but they were never shown. You clicked where you wanted to run or what you wanted to attack, and your character went about it. There might be a slight delay before the character carried out the command (ie waiting for his turn according to the game clock), but the game was never on "pause" waiting for NPCs or players to input their actions. Things continued to happen, seemingly if not factually, in real time, to the ticking of an invisible game clock.

I think a similar method could work for SRO. Granted, the clock would still have to be slowed down to allow for all the passes in each turn, and characters might seem frozen as they wait for the clock to allow them to perform their action. But using a clock would keep things moving and make combat more interesting because 1) the game would never be paused, and 2) the clock would allow for simultaneity (ie within a pass characters would exchange fire at the same time, not take turns shooting at each other).

There's a lot more to explore in such a method, but since I'm not a dev I'm not going to pretend I know how to go about it. I just wanted to throw the idea out there for consideration. If it's possible, I think it would be more fun than a turn-based game. Of course, this path is more for those who prefer playing a single character rather than playing a squad, a category into which I admittedly fall. In a game like SRO, I would much rather devote my attention to a single character (like I would in PnP, and in NWN) than direct a squad. But I know there are those who would disagree.

Thoughts?

Sangius

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Re: Turn-based or "real time"?
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2012, 12:34:11 am »
Hm, I think the plan is that you play several Runners at once. To me, the turn-based method seems to be as close as possible to the original Shadowrun - plus, it gives you the option to interrupt the game without any inconvenience, should somebody ring at the door or so. I do not really mind either way, but since I've been used to the fight-cycles for a long time now when it comes to SR, I think people who know the pen and paper version wouldn't really mind it.

Michael Chandra

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Re: Turn-based or "real time"?
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2012, 02:02:06 am »
Keep in mind Shadowrun is rather lethal. Plenty of PnP fights don't go past the first round. I don't know how long a fight lasts in JA:O, but for an SR:O fight to end in a few turns doesn't sound that strange.

Also, you fight with rather small teams. The pondering so far seems to be at 6 max for large runs, possible lower limits for smaller missions. And if we actually are allowed to hire our other characters for support, then the clock-thing would be rather problematic.

Stahlseele

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Re: Turn-based or "real time"?
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2012, 02:51:09 am »
Turnbased. Of the year 2012. Dot com!
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Beelzebubba

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Re: Turn-based or "real time"?
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2012, 02:57:42 am »
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Shadowrun-Online/170199826400835#!/media/set/?set=a.179435638810587.46999.170199826400835&type=3

So I just remembered the pic at the SRO FB page, the screenshot with the troll firing the gun and another character running. That suggests simultaneous character action, so I guess my question now goes to Primetide ... what are we looking at here, turn-based, near-real-time, or is it an engineered situation just to show off the game?


primetide

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Re: Turn-based or "real time"?
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2012, 05:45:13 pm »
The answer is: All three! ;)
We have soort-of real time until any opposed action takes place (hacking, casting, combat etc.) that sets off any sort of opposition reaction. Then we go turnbased.
The screnshot was indeed built from the engine, so not representative of the game rules, juts the game visuals.
Yay for the Flaming Carrot

Gator Shaman

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Re: Turn-based or "real time"?
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2012, 11:41:38 pm »
The answer is: All three! ;)
We have soort-of real time until any opposed action takes place (hacking, casting, combat etc.) that sets off any sort of opposition reaction. Then we go turnbased.
The screnshot was indeed built from the engine, so not representative of the game rules, juts the game visuals.
Is it going to go to a "fight screen" like Final Fantasy where character movement is restricted or can we see other groups in combat and possibly help them?

Stahlseele

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Re: Turn-based or "real time"?
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2012, 11:50:01 pm »
Is it going to be like the old Fallout 1 and 2 Parts, where everything was real time until combat started and you saw everything and everyone was limited in movement in terms of his AP?
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Sangius

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Re: Turn-based or "real time"?
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2012, 02:09:41 am »
Hm, I imagine it to be much like the original Jagged Alliance 2. Did anyone play it by any chance?

Stahlseele

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Re: Turn-based or "real time"?
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2012, 11:28:10 am »
Hm, I imagine it to be much like the original Jagged Alliance 2. Did anyone play it by any chance?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NdIS3vK6vek#t=3s
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primetide

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Re: Turn-based or "real time"?
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2012, 11:40:22 am »
Like Fallout 1-2 or Jagged Alliance 2 - you can see the whole field and everyone on it and take turns with actions limited by AP
Yay for the Flaming Carrot

Sangius

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Re: Turn-based or "real time"?
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2012, 01:17:04 pm »
Uh primetide, at least in JA:O and JA2 you cannot see everyone on the field from the start. You need to uncover them - it's one of the basic tactical dimensions, right?

Stahlseele

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Re: Turn-based or "real time"?
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2012, 01:18:55 pm »
Well, if it is the time of SR4, everybody and their mom is broadcasting their general position via WiFi anyway . . If you can switch it off, then that's something else entirely.
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Sangius

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Re: Turn-based or "real time"?
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2012, 03:00:34 pm »
Uh wait, guards in highsecurity labs broadcast their position these days? Oh boy, I think we still play the oldschool style in my group.

Stahlseele

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Re: Turn-based or "real time"?
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2012, 11:20:33 pm »
Uh wait, guards in highsecurity labs broadcast their position these days? Oh boy, I think we still play the oldschool style in my group.
But of course, at least to their own network they do.
And if you have a decker(fuck no, i ain't calling them hackers, i'll be sticking wires into my brain, thank you very much <.<)  that knows how these things work, he will be in there and see from their perspective where everything is . .
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